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Hollow Core to Solid "quick splice system"


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#1 copperhead

copperhead

Posted 06 January 2010 - 10:23 PM

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Read many posts on solid to hollow connection/splicing. Seems after trying a few of the nub connections myself. the ease and quickness this can be done makes this a very desirable method to be used on the water in a knotless line system. Getting ready for an up coming trip I have worked out a "plan" to replace the hollow core (with spliced end loop) spliced to solid spectra main line in the event of damage/break offs above this connection.

I've made up muliple 5' sections of hollow core with spliced end loops.

Then in each section I inserted (going AWAY from spliced loop end) a 8'' modified loop puller 12'' from tag end of hollow core and pulled the hollow core onto the loop.

The modification: On the end of each leg of the loop puller I put a bend in leg of about 3/4'' pointing back toward pinched end. Think of a "W" with very short outside legs. This prevents hollow core from coming off back of puller.

After pulling hollow core onto modified loop puller I inserted loop puller into short section of coffee stirrer which I had previously tied two 8 turn nail knots with 30# solid spectra leaving 3-4'' tags. I secured stirrer with small piece of tape.

Loop remainder of 5' section around palm to make compact loops and secure with twist tie.

When spliced end loop section is needed, simply peel piece of tape off, insert tag end of main line thru puller.
Pull main line thu stirrer, slip 1 nail knot off and snug down.
Slide stirrer with other nail knot up main line.
2'' from tag end of main line tie 1 over hand knot and tighten. This knot assures nail knot or "nub" absolutely will not slip down main line under load.
Slip snugged nail knot down to overhand knot and tighten with tightening rods until spectra turns clear.

Insert main line back into loop puller, pull hollow core up main line and over "nub" about 2".
Smooth tightly.
Slide stirrer down main line and over hollow core.
Slip remaining nail knot off ABOVE previously tightened nub ON REEL SIDE OF NUB but NOT above end of hollow core
Snug down.
Slip this nail knot down to nub.
Tighten again with tightening rods until clear.
Make 1 loop to loop to my wind-ons with pretied swivel.

BACK IN GAME

I assure you this can be done MUCH faster than it took to read this and certainly MUCH MUCH faster than it took me to type it.
Should be able to do this in less than 1 minute on the boat in 3-4 footers, with busting fish every where!!!

#2 bigscrnman

bigscrnman

Posted 07 January 2010 - 11:48 AM

You need to do a video of this and post....I am a visual learner

#3 pametfisher

pametfisher

Posted 07 January 2010 - 12:42 PM

I really enjoyed reading this and the system that you've come up with. Since it seems to meet your strength requirements and you've got the logistics down pat, congratulations.

As I analyze how the forces are transferred, this falls roughly halfway between a knotted and spliced connection and has two primary strength mechanisms. A key property in your design is the friction of a tightly tied Nail Knot on Spectra--somewhere between 10 lbs. and 20 lbs. in the testing I've done if you pull the knot tight enough to make the Nail Knot transparent.

The force transfer on the hollow spectra line is uniform, around the circumference of the hollow line, at the Nail Knot. The holding force is the ability of the Nail Knot to resist expansion. I have not tested this so I do not have a number.

The force transfer on the solid spectra line is the sum of the friction between the second Nail Knot (the nub) and the solid line. Let's go with the 20 lb. figure to get a best case. After that, the load gets taken up by the Overhand Knot (a key requirement). Lets say it is a 60% knot (sometimes it's 50%). If you use this system, on 80# solid with line with an ABS of 96 lbs., the design breaking strength would be 20 lbs. plus 58 lbs. (60% of 96 lbs.). That totals 78 lbs. which means that it is an 80%-strong system on the solid braid side. (Worst case would be 10 lbs. plus 48 lbs. totaling 58 lbs. and about 60% efficient.) One thing to note, the more friction you can generate between the Nail Knot on the solid and the solid line, the stronger this design will get.

If you preprepared the Hollow Spectra Techniques: Splicing Hollow-Weave line to Solid Line using your logistics, you'd get a 100% strong connection.

I think you already tried some load cycling, you might also want to try 6-8 hrs of casting to see how the Nail Knots hold up. Because you've tightened them to clear, I would think it would be pretty good. Nice work.

#4 DenisB

DenisB

Posted 07 January 2010 - 02:22 PM

absolutely correct that the nub nail knot friction is the key to a successful knot of this type.
The amount of friction required at the nub is inversely proportional to the length of insertion.
I suggest the friction equation is two sided:-
- friction on the solid
- friction on the hollow.

friction on the solid-
external nail knot serve + internal nub + insertion length finger grip.

friction on the hollow-
external nail knot serve + clamping between the external nail knot serve & the nub + insertion length finger grip.

as the solid is smaller in diameter than the hollow the weak link is the total friction on the solid. Inadequate friction there allows the solid to slip inside the nub.

I have found that nail knot friction efficiency declines as the number of turns increases above 10-12, as the centre turns above 12 do not achieve the same tension as the turns at the ends. To optimise the friction at the nub onto the solid I tie 2 nail knots, the first one is 10-12 turns in 30# and it is backed up with 10-12 turns in 20#.

Due to the smoothness of mono / fluoro this is even more important using a nub knot connection at the leader end of a solid-hollow-mono leader aided by adequate pre-tensioning of the mono/fluoro leader when applying the nubs.

I have settled on 6" insertions and can have a total hollow length of about 14" between the solid & the mono leader if desired , or a longer length of hollow that serves as both a casting leader ( easier on the casting finger) and as a high strength fighting leader when the fish is close to the boat.

This latter setup casts much more efficiently than an all mono leader system with mono on the spool.

I trim the hollow about 10mm external to the outer nail knot and serve with 4# spectra for a smooth transition for casting ( but its not absolutely required).


Equally, a longer length of hollow can be attached to the solid mainline & utilise loop to loop attachment for shorter mono/fluoro leaders and fast leader replacement.

A solid/hollow/leader nub knot connection is now replacing the PR knot as my go-to leader attachment setup & casting efficiencies have been achieved with reliable 90-100 % connections.
Reduced insertion lengths have improved the casting efficiency of the leader connection on the spool as they pass thru the guidetrain.

Works for me.

#5 copperhead

copperhead

Posted 07 January 2010 - 03:36 PM

I have not yet tested this connection as I have only been playing around with splicing/hollowcore/end loops etc. for about a month now. After the posting of the line/knot testing bracket I designed my own. I have a few days off and will be doing some load cycles/testing of wind-ons I have made along with testing of this nub connection.
I wish someone would instruct me on posting photos. I would love to share the line testing bracket I made and I could also get critiques on some line set-ups.
I really appreciate the info I have gotten from Pametfisher, Bigreddog, DennisB and others on this forum. Short months ago I didn't know hollow core line existed now I am becoming proficent with it and I believe it will eliminate a lot of knot/line issues on the water giving everyone a more satisfying experience while fishing.
My goal is to have a system that:
1) Maintains as close to 100% line strenght as possible.
2) Is simple
3) Can be done easily and quickly with minimal "tools" on the boat in any condition.
4)Does not interfere with line flow.

I'll share my test results in a day or so.

#6 pametfisher

pametfisher

Posted 07 January 2010 - 03:59 PM

One more point I'll make: unless the splice length is zero, this is still a floating system--meaning that stretch/release cycles will cause creep. There's not much, but it is still there.

When some photos of a completed splice get posted, I will try and point out what will move.

#7 DenisB

DenisB

Posted 07 January 2010 - 06:57 PM

One more point I'll make: unless the splice length is zero, this is still a floating system--meaning that stretch/release cycles will cause creep. There's not much, but it is still there.

When some photos of a completed splice get posted, I will try and point out what will move.


I agree, which is why I do not reduce the insertion length less than 6" as a safety margin. Adequate pre- tensioning during the nub attachment is a very important aspect of dealing with minimising movement within the friction area of the join. Done properly, any differential elongation of the materials is released within the insertion tags at cyclic load release.

The important thing to recognise with nub knots is that the insertion tag length is a safety margin & that the join relies on an interference fit between the nub & the outer nail knot ..............these rely on maintaining adequate friction under load to stop movement.
For anyone adopting the nub knot system it is therefore important to recognise the friction factors affecting the success of the nub security & that increasing nail knot turns is inefficient in increasing friction within a given nail knot, therefore two smaller nail knots of say 10 turns butted up against each other on the insertion generate significantly more friction than a single 20 turn nail knot............ the external nail knot then locks the hollow against these two inner nail knots forming a reliable nub.

#8 Guest_BretABaker_*

Guest_BretABaker_*

Posted 07 January 2010 - 07:01 PM

jim - youll have to show me next week :)

#9 copperhead

copperhead

Posted 09 January 2010 - 04:45 PM

After building testing frame, I tested three of the nub connections. The connections were made with an over hand knot tied in 80# (ABS 76lbs.) Diawa Boat Braid, a 8 turn nail knot tied butting up to the overhand and tightened until clear. Inserted nub 2'' into 80# JBHC and tied another 8 turn nail knot on insertion side of internal nub and tightened until clear. Hung line testers from hand hoist with 2 empty 5 gallon buckets attached to bottom testing frame. Added water until failure. Connections failed @ 46#,48#,48# Average of 47.3#s. This proved to be a 62% connection.
Interesting to note ALL failures were from Boat Braid pulling out of connection WITHOUT nub. Internal nub stayed in place as did external nub. I was suprised that over hand knot was pushed off end of Boat Braid!!
Just as DennisB notes the key to this connection is increasing friction of internal nub on solid spectra.
I believe the coloring process of the Boat Braid adds to this challenge.
I'm going to try again with the tag ends of the internal nub passed thru solid and secured with unis.

One question, is the 76# ABS of the Boat Braid consistent with you guys' tests? I tested 3 pieces off 2 different spools and got 1@ 68# then 5 @ 74-78#s.

#10 pametfisher

pametfisher

Posted 09 January 2010 - 05:51 PM

After building testing frame, I tested three of the nub connections. The connections were made with an over hand knot tied in 80# (ABS 76lbs.) Diawa Boat Braid, a 8 turn nail knot tied butting up to the overhand and tightened until clear. Inserted nub 2'' into 80# JBHC and tied another 8 turn nail knot on insertion side of internal nub and tightened until clear. Hung line testers from hand hoist with 2 empty 5 gallon buckets attached to bottom testing frame. Added water until failure. Connections failed @ 46#,48#,48# Average of 47.3#s. This proved to be a 62% connection.
Interesting to note ALL failures were from Boat Braid pulling out of connection WITHOUT nub. Internal nub stayed in place as did external nub. I was suprised that over hand knot was pushed off end of Boat Braid!!
Just as DennisB notes the key to this connection is increasing friction of internal nub on solid spectra.
I believe the coloring process of the Boat Braid adds to this challenge.
I'm going to try again with the tag ends of the internal nub passed thru solid and secured with unis.

One question, is the 76# ABS of the Boat Braid consistent with you guys' tests? I tested 3 pieces off 2 different spools and got 1@ 68# then 5 @ 74-78#s.


This is the result that I have seen with many strengths of Boat Braid: ABS=Box Label or a bit less.

The coloring process may be a factor, but Spectra/Dyneema is about as slippery as teflon is.

As I mentioned several posts earlier in this thread, I am not surprised. Your connection worked about as I had thought.

Keep working on it, I bet you find ways to make improvements!

#11 DenisB

DenisB

Posted 10 January 2010 - 12:42 AM

Intuitively running the tags thru the solid mainline to lock the nub in place with a couple of reverse unis, seems a good idea.
I tried this and found the solid broke preferentially at the needle pass thru the solid. I assumed this was from abnormal strain on individual fibres of the braid as the nub moved against the needle pass thru the solid under load.

I only tried this a couple of times, before I pursued a different direction of increasing the nub "crimp length ".

Keep trying
Its all part of evolution of the gear & techniques we use, with many individuals contributing little bits we can all build on.

" many heads simply come up with more ideas than 1 or 2 heads."

#12 pametfisher

pametfisher

Posted 10 January 2010 - 07:09 AM

You might want to try this 100% strong splice again: Hollow Spectra Techniques: Splicing Hollow-Weave line to Solid Line

but without the safety Uni. Bring the solid out of the splice for an inch, then back in for 3". That will give you a tell-tail against the rare possibility of significant movement.

You can pre-rig this to get the feature of fast change if you feel you need that.

What I do is to make the hollow 10 yards long so that it doesn't need to be changed.

Another idea is to try and make a line to line splice by threading the solid. That would be best of all. Even if you can get a 2-3" splice into the solid, it will be 100%.

#13 copperhead

copperhead

Posted 10 January 2010 - 12:59 PM

I do plan to use your described HC to Solid splice. Since you had already used and tested this connection I thought I could try another with the idea of falling back on yours in the event of unsatisfactory results.

#14 bigreddog

bigreddog

Posted 20 January 2010 - 09:59 PM

Nice work Copperhead, and I especially appreciate the honest results. I thought that the connection would test stronger.

As DenisB says evolution is what is really important here.

Have you tried a little glue with your method? I would guess that it would add strength if a little loss of flexibility is acceptable.

#15 bigreddog

bigreddog

Posted 20 January 2010 - 10:14 PM

[quote name='DenisB']Intuitively running the tags thru the solid mainline to lock the nub in place with a couple of reverse unis, seems a good idea.
I tried this and found the solid broke preferentially at the needle pass thru the solid. I assumed this was from abnormal strain on individual fibres of the braid as the nub moved against the needle pass thru the solid under load.

DenisB- did you test this method with glue or without? My tests did not break at the connection area, always in the main line and away from the nubs. I could not break the connection in my limited testing.

However, I was using ca glue, because flexibility in the type fishing that I am doing now is not too important.

Great points on the number or wraps on the nail knots-that helps anyone from the flyfisherman to the guy trying to catch a 400# tuna.

#16 DenisB

DenisB

Posted 21 January 2010 - 02:04 PM

Both with & without,& used 2 different CA types.

The key in this is the friction from compression by the nub.

The primary role of CA is holding the nub and serve wraps together not adhesion of the nub/serve to what they are wrapped on.
The actual adhesion level of the CA is not all that great as the molecular bond between the CA to spectra/mono/fluoro is not all that great, but the CA matrix holds together quite well as an encapsulation of whats underneath it.

My technique is now adding CA after the join is complete .
ie CA is added to the external nailknot and the adjacent internal nub at the one time ( as well as the adjacent serve of the hollow tag end ).

The CA being more of a belts & braces thing.
with the nubknot joins the knots are pretty short in total and flexibility is not compromised a great deal with the addition of the CA.




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