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Titanium vs Fuji SIC new concept guides?


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#1 NETuna

NETuna

Posted 01 April 2010 - 05:00 PM

trying to formulate a quality and cost comparions between Titanium vs Fuji SIC new concept guides? Is titanium much lighter and stronger? And can someone give a ballpark estimate of how much more titanium guides might cost?

Thanks

#2 rhale

rhale

Posted 01 April 2010 - 05:03 PM

Guides

#3 north coast

north coast

Posted 01 April 2010 - 05:07 PM

Maybe double the cost? Corosion proof is pretty interesting though. I just put a set on a rod , fuji titaniums(svsg Or the titanium equivilent),Granted the rod Is only 4'8" but it's by far the lightest rod in it's class that I have ever held.the guides are surely one factor. they are light.who knows how much stronger they are ,and really?who cares?who has ever had guides break? rings yes,guides ,not very often.

#4 NETuna

NETuna

Posted 01 April 2010 - 05:17 PM

Interesting, how much more would 5 or 6 fuji sic guides weigh vs titanium? Are we talking an ounce total differential or 3+ oz difference?

Thanks for helping me understand this stuff :)

#5 north coast

north coast

Posted 01 April 2010 - 06:03 PM

I honestly don't know what the difference in weight would be. I don't have any way to weigh stuff this small. Probably not a huge difference. I seem to be able to feel it though. It may also be the blank I used .All I know is when I play with this rod it makes me giggle at how light it is. I think truely, it is a combination of the rod being 4'8". the blank being exceptionally light and the guides. Together these 3 factors contribute to make the lightest tuna rod I've ever built.

#6 NETuna

NETuna

Posted 01 April 2010 - 07:34 PM

What reel do you have it paired up with? What blank?

#7 DenisB

DenisB

Posted 01 April 2010 - 07:45 PM

Fuji titanium frames are about 35% lighter than the equivalent concept frame
depends on the guide size you are using in the guidetrain , but you are looking at 1 Oz not in the order of 3.

What you are feeling on the rod tho is the polar "weight" of the rod plus guides , where a little weight difference out near the tip makes a huge difference in what you feel as the "weight " of the rod.......... as what you are feeling is Weight times Distance from your hand.

#8 north coast

north coast

Posted 01 April 2010 - 08:00 PM

What reel do you have it paired up with? What blank?

No reel on it . The blank is a synit.

#9 stresst

stresst

Posted 01 April 2010 - 09:17 PM

IMO sic is all you need. There like the mercedes S63, expensive but worth it and top of the line, but titanium is like the S65 a bit better but absolutely not worth it. But nice to have....

#10 Minnow

Minnow

Posted 01 April 2010 - 09:25 PM

For longer rod you might want to use the SS frame. Ti frame are too flexible for larger guides especially the TKWSG series. With heavy loads the flexes on the frame might cause the ring to pop out.

OTI was going to use the Ti frame for our production rod but chose the KWSG instead.

#11 dugong

dugong

Posted 01 April 2010 - 10:37 PM

For an overhead set up, set of 1 x 20, 1 x 16, 1 x 12 and 4 x 10mm guides, the cost for Fuji ICMNSG is $72.75, the same sized set for the Titanium Am Tak Virtus heavy(40-80lbclass) is $80.43, for the Virtus Light the cost is $74.79. Fuji Titanium are cosiderabley more expensive and the only suitable guides they have for heavier rods of 300g + in a Titanium frame would be the Fuji TLCSG at $120.59 for a set..
For a spin rod set up there aren't really any titanium guides in my view that are suitable for 300g+ blanks, so there would only be the Fuji "MN" series in stainless frames. You could use the TLCSG for a spin set up if you are comfortable with that, as they are infact designed for use with spin reels for casting.
For me the real benefit of Titanium is that they are corrosion free, as I have had issues with corrosion Fuji stainless framed guides, particularly with the Fuji MNSG (gunsmoke) Sic's, that has caused catastrophic failure at the bend in the foot of the guide due to the rusted region weakening the area at that particular point on the bend between the foot and the leg work hardening untill it breaks.
Although the dead weight difference between stainless and Titanium may be small, the overall difference created by the "polar" effect as Dennis B writes is noticeable in the hand. As far as I am aware titanium is stronger that stainless, but Titanium may be more prone to the effects of work hardening, but I am sure less so than a rusted stainless guide foot.

#12 north coast

north coast

Posted 02 April 2010 - 03:44 AM

Interesting,
Thanks for the extreme clarity.
I agree with all, except that I believe that the tsvsg guide IS an acceptable guide for spinning rods over 300G.Titanium ,being fairly new has not 100% proven(at least in my mind) that it can hold up to many battles with huge fish,But I have every confidence in the quality of fuji guides.I have rods that have been commercial fished,then removed the guides and placed them on another rod after 20 years. And I'm not very good with maintenance. If I could afford them, I'd use these guides with confidence.

#13 Squished

Squished

Posted 02 April 2010 - 05:47 AM

Wow the TKWSG are expensive. Just priced out a set of 40, 30, 25, 30, 20, 16, 12, and 10-9 tip for $280 from mudhole! Looks like I'll have to wait for the money tree to blossom....

#14 Kevin Bogan

Kevin Bogan

Posted 02 April 2010 - 07:10 AM

You can buy a set of Alps guides/batson ent for about $30. They are as good as anything out there.

#15 MikeF

MikeF

Posted 02 April 2010 - 07:11 AM

Agree with the S63 AMG, amazing car but the rear tires don't last very long for some reason. LOL I haven't had to pay for a set since yesterday.

And thank you DenisB for not giving us a dissertation on polar mass of inertia. LOL

Now a real question, is there any reason these guides can't be made with replaceable inserts. I don't mean snap-in but it would be nice to be able to epoxy in an insert instead of having to have the guide replaced.

#16 dugong

dugong

Posted 02 April 2010 - 08:03 AM

The Fuji K series of guides sure are a beautiful thing, are not recomended for jigging. That being said, they would undoubtedly add some serious aesthetics to a rod that is built with them. There are much better guides for the purpose of jigging. I would not hesitate for even the blink of an eye to put the any of the "K" series on a popping rod

#17 ksong

ksong

Posted 02 April 2010 - 09:06 AM

Hots One Pitch Slider use Fuji Titanium guides for 56H and 56XH models and it looks they are as strong as Fuji SIC guides.


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Jignpop.com


#18 thenewkid

thenewkid

Posted 02 April 2010 - 09:18 AM

I love how a post on guides gets compared to an amg merc.... but true if you wanna blow the extra ca-ching go for it either way titanium/sic both pretty kickass. On a side not the s63 aint bad but id hate to keep up with tires for the slr mclaren http://www.zastavki....ren_005092_.jpg I wish there was a drool smiley.:D
~Tony~
You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on.

A man's got to believe in something. I believe I'll have another drink.

#19 ksong

ksong

Posted 02 April 2010 - 09:29 AM

Here is Matsudani's report.


We have been re-testing many times this KWSG guide around many place in the world and result is not suitable for our (Patriot Design)
GT fishing rods specs,due to guide rim & ring weakness for our GT rod spec(power level).

Sametime,we are testing this KWSG guide for our light tackle,it can be use or not..we will inform the result soon we finish testing.



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Jignpop.com

#20 Jason4606

Jason4606

Posted 02 April 2010 - 09:35 AM

Agree with what TJ said... Ti frames are nice for their light weight and corrosion resistance. But IMO the issue is that Ti is Too Flexible for heavy applications... The problem is that SiC is extremely brittle. It will chip and crack with Very little coercion... So a frame that flexes (even a little) is a Really, Really, Bad thing.

I have a rod that came with Fuji TLNSG guides. This is a medium duty 200-250g ~50lb class rods that has been Lightly Used and well taken care of. These are low, conventional guides and should be fine... Well... Two of them chipped on the rod, 1 x 12mm and 1 x 10mm. i still have no idea how or when it possibly could have happened.

So I wanted to rebuild the rod with Titanium, but didn't want to spend $$ on Fuji. So I got Amtac NIC Titans instead. After 2 or 3 trips, one of the Amtac's popped out and another split in two... again with no idea when or how.

That's 4 guides on 1 rod in a very short period of time... And I take very good care of my gear... no rods hitting the deck! ;)

Maybe some of the newer locked ring styles are better. But I personally wouldn't do it. The extra cost of the guides plus the potential cost of rebuilding if they fail is just too high. Plus, the weight savings for conventional is tiny, and I think all styles are too flexible for heavy spinning apps.

Just my $.02.:)

(BTW, I've never had a stainless Fuji Sic Fail on any class rod.:))




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