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Nail Knot


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#1 bibanez

bibanez

Posted 17 November 2010 - 07:33 PM

Pros and cons of a nail knot for a serve. Hollow braid to mono. Thanks Bob

#2 johndtuttle

johndtuttle

Posted 17 November 2010 - 07:51 PM

I've been experimenting with this, the nail nub and the even simpler Blackwater version where you simply insert your mono 3-5 foot and serve the end with one tight nail knot.

The advantage is simplicity certainly, but depending on how well you do your job the amount you insert into the Hollow Braid has to be more or less. During the fight your leader is significantly stretched and thinned and as pressure goes up and down the leader creeps out. This is why so much has to be inserted, as a margin for error to prevent losing your fish. The better and higher quality the serve the less you have to insert. This can only be done by loading your leader with a jig during tying to stretch and thin it before hand so that your serve is uber tight and bears more of the load. This is more complicated then I am interested in.

The problem with doing a "so-so" serve is that you have to put the full 5 feet inside to be safe. If you are fishing heavy leaders this bangs through the guides when you cast decreasing casting distance significantly. This may be my quick and dirty 40-60lbs windon solution, but for heavier leaders for big fish it doesn't really work for me.

I am still playing around with this but have not found anything that works better than pametfisher's Streamline Leaders, honestly. I pay $20 each for them like everyone else but the quality of the serve is so high it bears 100% of the load so very little leader is inserted into the braid and it is so low profile it casts like a dream. You really have to use them to appreciate them and I am sold that it is the best casting windon leader known at this time.

#3 bibanez

bibanez

Posted 17 November 2010 - 08:22 PM

I am very interested in the fact that its so easy to install. Have tied a few but have not tested yet. What other knots would you serv with. Bob

#4 johndtuttle

johndtuttle

Posted 17 November 2010 - 09:10 PM

I have tried the Page Ranking method where you insert the hollow the same way and then tie the Page Ranking as the serve with the same braid mainline. I was not favorably impressed as the Page Ranking knot is difficult to get as tight as you should as it is finished over a section of braid that has mono in it not providing an ideal bite.

I have not tried other serves because the key is a jig and preloading the leader to get something that holds up to cycled loads (like fighting a fish). The nail knot method is absolutely admirable for simplicity and cost and many guys fishing live bait are happy with them. But it is not my first choice for casting when using a heavy leader (80-130lbs).

#5 copperhead

copperhead

Posted 17 November 2010 - 09:51 PM

Pros and cons of a nail knot for a serve. Hollow braid to mono. Thanks Bob

I have been building my own windons for a while now. I use a ten turn Nail Knot tied with 30lb JB solid that is tightened with two wooden dowels (as in the BlackWater videos) until the solid braid turns translucent. I built a jig that lets me load my leader to 22lbs before I tie the Nail Knot. I leave one end of the knot long (about 12-14"), which I load onto my weighted bobbin and serve about 1" and finish the serve with an 8 turn uniserve which again is tighten with one of the dowels. I have tested with 50 loads of 50lbs which is 2 1/2 times maxium drag and have had no significant creep. Never had one fail fighting a fish and have landed 100 plus lb YF and a couple of sharks to 7-8'. I use an insertion of about 14-16"s. You can actually see that the diameter of the knot and serve is less than the mono/hollow after the windon is un-loaded and removed from the jig.
I have pictures posted @ http://www.360tuna.c...cs-added-14294/

#6 MikeF

MikeF

Posted 17 November 2010 - 10:02 PM

Not an expert but as a fly fisherman I of course tried using a nail knot to attach a leader to braid. In all cases it slipped like it was greased. I do not think it would add anything to your serve.

#7 johndtuttle

johndtuttle

Posted 17 November 2010 - 10:41 PM

Not an expert but as a fly fisherman I of course tried using a nail knot to attach a leader to braid. In all cases it slipped like it was greased. I do not think it would add anything to your serve.


this is the technique we are discussing mike:

YouTube - TackleTour Video - Braid and fluorocarbon connection without a direct knot!

#8 DenisB

DenisB

Posted 18 November 2010 - 04:03 AM

Nothing wrong with using a nail knot serve with a long mono insertion in general principle..............& reliable for a fish or 2 , but not multiple trips, IMHO.

Its improved by pre-tensioning the mono , bringing the tag of the mono out of the side of the braid to enable it to be gripped while pretensioning ( more reliable than tensioning the join ). It increases the strength of the join & its longer term reliability.

It is yet further improved by applying a nail nub direct to the mono under pre-tension prior to insertion & then the nail knot 'serve' after insertion ( to lock on the nub ) . Users choice as to how short you make the insertion as a result of your testing of your technique.

This makes the longterm reliability of a nail knot join the same as other quality insertion techniques.............and as short as desirable for casting efficiency, if that is the objective.

For long topshots I would leave the insertion long for added "belts & braces" security...............and would do the same for any insertion join type for use with a long topshot.
ie
longer than casting distances.

tag security of both conventional serves & nail knots is about the same & not worth arguing about.

#9 copperhead

copperhead

Posted 18 November 2010 - 06:05 AM

[quote name='DenisB']

"Its improved by pre-tensioning the mono , bringing the tag of the mono out of the side of the braid to enable it to be gripped while pretensioning ( more reliable than tensioning the join ). It increases the strength of the join & its longer term reliability."

If I understand you correctly, you say that the reliability of the Nail Knot serve can be increased by pre-tensioning the mono only--not having the join under load when served?
Just off the cuff I would have thought just the opposite. Would you mind explaining a little more

#10 MikeF

MikeF

Posted 18 November 2010 - 08:58 AM

I understand what you were talking about. To make it work he had to cinch it with dowels and glue it. My point was a nail knot slips on braid and he had to do all of that to make up for the problem even when there was no direct force on the nail knot. What I didn't believe was when he said all the strength comes from the 2' of line in the braid.

I also wonder how it holds up going through the guides when casting or retrieving. It does look like it would cast better than having a stiffer serve. I'll give this a try and see how it works. Thanks for sharing this.

BTW they make hand lotion and nail knot tools.

#11 copperhead

copperhead

Posted 18 November 2010 - 11:10 AM

I understand what you were talking about. To make it work he had to cinch it with dowels and glue it. My point was a nail knot slips on braid and he had to do all of that to make up for the problem even when there was no direct force on the nail knot. What I didn't believe was when he said all the strength comes from the 2' of line in the braid.

I also wonder how it holds up going through the guides when casting or retrieving. It does look like it would cast better than having a stiffer serve. I'll give this a try and see how it works. Thanks for sharing this.

BTW they make hand lotion and nail knot tools.

LOL!! Infact I have found dry cracked skin to be a PITA when making windons as the braid always seems to catch and hang just when you don't want it to!
The folded wire is hard to beat if you want to lay down tight smooth turns.

#12 bibanez

bibanez

Posted 18 November 2010 - 01:57 PM

Thanks for all your input gents. Any one else have any ideas. Thanks Bob

#13 DenisB

DenisB

Posted 18 November 2010 - 02:57 PM

[quote name='copperhead'][quote name='DenisB']

"Its improved by pre-tensioning the mono , bringing the tag of the mono out of the side of the braid to enable it to be gripped while pretensioning ( more reliable than tensioning the join ). It increases the strength of the join & its longer term reliability."

If I understand you correctly, you say that the reliability of the Nail Knot serve can be increased by pre-tensioning the mono only--not having the join under load when served?
Just off the cuff I would have thought just the opposite. Would you mind explaining a little more[/QUOTE]

In my experience :-
- The braid is not tensioned prior to the serving & achieves nothing & is counter productive if it is. The issue is the stretching of the mono & its reduction in diameter under load..........not the stretching of the braid.
- multiple wraps & clamping the combined mono-braid insertion at the fixed end of the tensioning jig damages the mono inside the insertion a bit unless the spool is large diameter & the clamping area is large..........too large & cumbersome simply. The tag edge of the mono if its on the spool is loaded against the inside of the braid at an angle & risks some damage to the braid fibres on the outside radius of the bend.
- short insertions result in inadequate wrapping of the insertion on the spool & relying on the finger cuff to handle the pre-tension load without the serve until its applied............this is rather unreliable at the pre-tension loads required.
- it is simply more reliable & easier to set up on the jig to bring the mono out the side of the braid & clamp a 'throw away' section of the mono in a compact jig set up.
The spool & clamp on the loaded mono end is quite large to ensure the mono is not damaged during pretensioning.

- on completion of the serve ( or nail knot) the mono is trimmed to the required insertion length & smoothed back inside the braid.
- the way you tidy the trimmed edge of the mono/fluoro affects the wear of the inside of the braid in longterm use.
- I bunch the braid on the mono on the jig during pre-tensioning ,just the same as you bunch it on your insertion needle, and use a little paperclip about 2" from the tag of the braid to position it for "serving" & keep the bunched braid between the paper clip & the end of the jig.

Pics of the jig I use have been posted in other threads.

Hope that helps explain.

#14 DenisB

DenisB

Posted 18 November 2010 - 03:20 PM

I understand what you were talking about. To make it work he had to cinch it with dowels and glue it. My point was a nail knot slips on braid and he had to do all of that to make up for the problem even when there was no direct force on the nail knot.


In my experience it is unwise to rely on glue adhesion for knot stability or strength at a spectra/spectra interface or a mono/spectra interface.
the actual adhesion bonding forces is quite weak and shears with any significant movement in the interface from differential stretching of the components.

Glue is best viewed as holding the serve/knot wraps together, rather than gluing the serve.knot to whatever it is on.

If in doubt read the relevant NASA research documents on bond strength & techniques they researched to improve bond strength & its longevity, that have been published.
bond strength & longevity of any pre-prep benefits for increased strength are low.

There are also some miss-understandings about 2-part super glues prevalent out there amongst anglers.
2-part super glues are not really reagents in a reaction, the primary function of the 'accelerator' is to form a slightly higher strength bond to the surface of the substrate that the super glue then bonds to.

the optimal 'accelerator' varies for the material substrate type.
In practice the results obtained are marginal & if the wrong 'accelerator' is used for the wrong material the result is counterproductive.

Hope that assists your thinking about glues in joins.

BTW
IF using nub knots............it is counterproductive to apply glue to the nub prior to its insertion in the braid.
Apply glue to both the external & internal nail knots on completion of the join.

Forewarned is forearmed.

#15 copperhead

copperhead

Posted 18 November 2010 - 09:58 PM

[quote name='DenisB'][quote name='copperhead']

In my experience :-
- The braid is not tensioned prior to the serving & achieves nothing & is counter productive if it is. The issue is the stretching of the mono & its reduction in diameter under load..........not the stretching of the braid.
- multiple wraps & clamping the combined mono-braid insertion at the fixed end of the tensioning jig damages the mono inside the insertion a bit unless the spool is large diameter & the clamping area is large..........too large & cumbersome simply. The tag edge of the mono if its on the spool is loaded against the inside of the braid at an angle & risks some damage to the braid fibres on the outside radius of the bend.
- short insertions result in inadequate wrapping of the insertion on the spool & relying on the finger cuff to handle the pre-tension load without the serve until its applied............this is rather unreliable at the pre-tension loads required.
- it is simply more reliable & easier to set up on the jig to bring the mono out the side of the braid & clamp a 'throw away' section of the mono in a compact jig set up.
The spool & clamp on the loaded mono end is quite large to ensure the mono is not damaged during pretensioning.

- on completion of the serve ( or nail knot) the mono is trimmed to the required insertion length & smoothed back inside the braid.
- the way you tidy the trimmed edge of the mono/fluoro affects the wear of the inside of the braid in longterm use.
- I bunch the braid on the mono on the jig during pre-tensioning ,just the same as you bunch it on your insertion needle, and use a little paperclip about 2" from the tag of the braid to position it for "serving" & keep the bunched braid between the paper clip & the end of the jig.

Pics of the jig I use have been posted in other threads.

Hope that helps explain.[/QUOTE]
Please take a look at photos 6,7,8 in this link: Pamet Please--more explanation PICS ADDED which is posted in a reply above in this thread.

The loop of the leader is secured to a plastic tubing covered bolt in the jig. This allows for the braid and mono to be tensioned with out harm to the braid. After tying the nail knot and serving with the tag end of the nail knot, and unloading the leader, the area served appears to be of a smaller diameter than the unserved braid/mono. While I don't have a micrometer to document this, if this is the case it would indicate a significant compression of the braid/mono resulting in a serve which is very reliable and stable.
Even though there is a very small percentage of stretch in the braid, tensioning it results in a thinner wall than if it was not loaded, which puts less material under the knot/serve resulting in a smaller inner "core" of the nail knot. This would increase the friction under the serve and require more force to pull the braid/mono "thru" the serve. This is what we all are trying to accomplish.
Your comments are welcomed

#16 MikeF

MikeF

Posted 18 November 2010 - 10:26 PM

I didn't think or say the glue was bonding to the leader. My assumption was the purpose of the glue was to keep the nail knot together and to adhere it to the braid. The glue would be absorb by both the nail knot and the braid and form a mechanical bond instead of a chemical bond. At Least that's how I see it.

#17 DenisB

DenisB

Posted 19 November 2010 - 03:16 AM

Please take a look at photos 6,7,8 in this link: Pamet Please--more explanation PICS ADDED which is posted in a reply above in this thread.

The loop of the leader is secured to a plastic tubing covered bolt in the jig. This allows for the braid and mono to be tensioned with out harm to the braid. After tying the nail knot and serving with the tag end of the nail knot, and unloading the leader, the area served appears to be of a smaller diameter than the unserved braid/mono. While I don't have a micrometer to document this, if this is the case it would indicate a significant compression of the braid/mono resulting in a serve which is very reliable and stable.
Even though there is a very small percentage of stretch in the braid, tensioning it results in a thinner wall than if it was not loaded, which puts less material under the knot/serve resulting in a smaller inner "core" of the nail knot. This would increase the friction under the serve and require more force to pull the braid/mono "thru" the serve. This is what we all are trying to accomplish.
Your comments are welcomed


Copperhead , I think you are taking a specific example which the OP did not refer to.
The OP spoke of hollow to mono serves in general & was not specific to windons
You referenced windons in your response.
Just because someone referred to insertions , does not automatically mean they are talking about L2L windons.
I was making a general reference to nail knots as serves on insertions & even referenced long topshots.

Obviously a L2L windon application has a loop available.
notwithstanding the availability of a loop I still prefer to bring the mono out the side & tension the mono directly as I am using a lot of pre-load in heavy windons.
( I had enough insertions slip & the pre-tension weights crash to the floor to not do it any more ).
when pre-tensioning as per your pics referenced ,the insertion grip is totally dependant on initiating tension via the rubber band compression.

If it works for you keep doing it ( 1st Law of fishing ).
If something happens along the way that is less than optimal , modify what you are doing to mitigate the issue ( 2nd Law of fishing ).

When you do stuff enough times , things have usually happened & what you are doing is invoking the 2nd Law more frequently than using the Ist Law.

ie
heavy windon leaders don't start to seriously stretch & reduce diameter until under some serious load ( obviously depends on the BS of the mono you are using & whether it is a soft leader or a hard leader.)
a good reliable insertion join is one where .............without over-compressing & damaging the line..............the join has more compression than the system at that point will ever be stretched to in use.
ie
as a straight insertion in a short or long topshot , no loop is available & my comment was more directed at that issue regarding spooling & clamping the braid + insertion..............vs..............mono clamping.

The primary point being made is that nail knots are short & are more reliable when adequately pre-tensioned.
when tied in the appropriate manner they are just as affective as a long serve..............its all about the compression generated in the join & maintained in the join under load.
An inadequately tied serve is just as ineffective as an inadequately tied nail knot.

I can't be bothered checking whether an insertion has slipped with every fish, I simply tie it well enough when I do it that I rely on it 100%. ( having tested my technique enough )
I'm too busy thinking about the next fish to waste time wondering whether my last knot/join was good enough.




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